Comments on: Seeing hope in the catastrophic failure of Christianity

By: garooob

garooob — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:05:47 +0000

It’s cool; we’re just having a discussion.
We may be thinking the same thing or after the same result, just going about it in a different way. I don’t think forcing anyone to do anything is going to get anything productive done. I’ve assumed that as Christians we already have the beliefs and faith (else we wouldn’t BE Christians, right?), we just need to have action. Because the view of Christians from outside is that either we’re telling everyone they’re going to Hell or we sit around feeling good about ourselves. We’re only concerned with ourselves and each other. I know I’m the only one responsible for my faith, so yeah, I have to make myself into a good person, but I’m also a representative of Christianity. It’s not just between me and God, I have to show that Christians are good people. Maybe I’m going around in circles now…

By: Andy

Andy — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 05:17:05 +0000

I’m just having a hard time deciding whether or not to agree with everything you’re saying. On the one hand, I agree that it’s crucial to act. If you don’t know what to do, start putting one foot ahead of the other. I’d like to invite people to do something and stop thinking having the right beliefs will amount to anything. As James wrote in his letter, to paraphrase, show me what you believe by what you do. Believing “correctly” all by itself is meaningless, and the person who is acting (listening and walking with Jesus) won’t have to worry about beliefs much.

I also agree that if Christians really wanted to do what Jesus did, then they would do something. I think that’s right.

On the other hand, I’m hesitant to go along with statements like “everyone needs to…” and “we need to…” I think it’s pretty futile saying what other people need to do. One problem is that people who listen (to others telling them what they “should do” or “need to do”) don’t end up looking inside and listening for the authentic voice of God speaking to them. It’s just easier to try and conform to what others say than to be transformed (by surrender to Love). So I’m just not going to take responsibility for what others “should do” or “should believe” or even what I think they “need to do.”

The truth is that people already know in their depths that something is wrong which requires action, but they haven’t gotten to the point where they are ready to acknowledge what’s there. They still lack the willingness to give up control and step into it (and whatever else God in his timing is bringing together so they can make a change). Despite having the opportunity to choose life at it’s best, most of us hang back, and many will never step into that reality. I believe God loves them as they are. I sad that so many will miss out on the best. I hope I won’t be one of them, and I’m counting on mercy.

When it comes to my role in influencing others, I think demonstrations are more powerful than words to convince people stuck in this situation. I will also speak the truth from my heart when I sense it’s right (probably without using “should” or “have to”).

However, I no longer feel obligated to speak words or provide a demonstration. My responsibility is to heard from God and respond in trust. Then I’ll act in love and faith, without imposing any obligations on others to respond in kind, and leave the results up to God.

Just to be clear (I hope), I don’t think I’m better or more right than you. I would have have simply agreed with you at one point, and maybe we actually agree completely but I’m just not seeing it. Don’t worry about my opinion, please. Even my current response comes out of where I’m at now feeling my way forward on this journey.

By: garooob

garooob — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:27:45 +0000

I went on vacation, but now I’m back. I know you’re not saying I’m a guilt tripper. It’s cool.
What I’m saying about people should do stuff to help rather than give money or do nothing is this: Remember the WWJD fad? If Christians really wanted to do what Jesus did, miracles aside, they would DO something, anything! Jesus didn’t skip stones on the Sea of Galilee all day, he did stuff to help people. Again, I’m not saying that everyone needs to stop what they’re doing and go invite homeless people into their guest bedroom, but we need to stop the apathy!

By: Andy

Andy — Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:29:12 +0000

I think that if I know Christ and follow him, then I don’t have to worry about getting others to do the same. I’m not saying I wouldn’t love others and want them to know Jesus, but I won’t feel any pressure to make them come along. As a result, they won’t feel like I’m pushing them (because I won’t be).

One problem with Christian clubs (a.k.a., churches) is that they own buildings and have resources. Then they all feel an obligation to use their resources one way or another, and this leads to much discussion (to put it mildly). I’m not saying it’s bad to be a member of a Christian club, but I do think these structures sometimes make it harder, not easier, for us to follow Jesus (which as you say could be very simple). In fact, it’s still possible to have rich community and work together with others without being members of a club.

By: Danny Kam

Danny Kam — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:20:37 +0000

I feel like Boyd has hit it on the head and so have you. If we want people to follow Christ, then we have to follow Christ. The idea behind it seems quite simple, and yet we fail to do it almost daily in most churches. I find myself often out of bounds at churches because of the amount that I want to do. My ideas are often too radical: for instance, making the sanctuary into a homeless shelter the other six days of the week.

By: Andy

Andy — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:34:19 +0000

I don’t mean to suggest you are one of the people saying “should” or using guilt or obligation to motivate people to action. I just wanted to be clear that I’m not advocating these approaches, because I think they ultimately backfire. People motivated by obligation and guild seek out the bare minimums to make the guilt go away.

But I think anyone who looks deeply into the love of God and begins to comprehend and receive it will change from the inside out. He or she will joyfully and freely act in love without any concern for “how much is enough.” They may begin with small steps, but as they continue they are capable of loving without limits and often do with no fanfare or regrets.

By: garooob

garooob — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 03:54:39 +0000

I know you’re not saying we should do more; I’m saying that. But think of the difference it could make if everyone who claims to be Christian did the work of God and Jesus. I know we can’t do miracles, but what if we took some time to serve soup, read a book to a child, run errands for the elderly or something else you can’t just give money to someone else to do. Maybe that would open our hearts to love.

By: Andy

Andy — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:56:11 +0000

I just want to clarify that I’m not saying Christians “should” do more. I think Christians (in general and, of course, with many exceptions) are already should-ing all over themselves and on everyone they meet. Saying I “should” do something creates a minimum standard mentality (e.g., okay how much should I do to be okay). I’d like to see Christians throw out the whole idea of a minimum standard and worrying about what they should do.

Rather, my hope is that we will comprehend the love of God — that God really IS Love and that they are truly free. If more Christians grasped the love of God and the reality of their freedom then I’m confident they would desire to live to the maximum extent in the love of Christ. Then words like “should” and “ought” would almost disappear from their vocabulary, and they would recognize and discard their poisonous habits of guilt and obligation.

By: garooob

garooob — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:27:36 +0000

I’ll comment.
I came to a similar conclusion recently. The bad rap that Christians are getting is because we don’t do anything that Jesus told us to. 99.9% of Christians are Christian for one hour a week. You’re right; that’s the bare minimum. They do their time, pay the entry fee and go home. There are maybe a handful of missionaries and people who run homeless shelters; everyone else just sits back and watches. That’s not to say that you have to literally give everything to the poor to follow Him, but we as Christians still need to give. And we don’t. Not nearly enough, not with any feeling.
But I’ll stop there for the sake of Internet attention spans (original essay was tl;dr, sorry to say). More discussion can be had at email, if you so desire.